Brad Shreve 0:01

Coming up. In addition to talking about the newest novel in his death and Shanghai series. Garrett Hudson gives a few podcast recommendations. Plus Justine's book recommendations are by the most highly acclaimed or at least the biggest selling author. She's mentioned a date. Crime feats. Brad Shreve and you're listening to Queer Writers of Crime. Featuring LGBTQ authors, a mystery suspense, and thriller novels. Justine. I did a very stupid thing a few minutes ago

Justene 0:44

Oh dear.

Brad Shreve 0:45

now. Like I don't do stupid things all the time.

Justene 0:48

Yeah, I know, but this must be particularly stupid if you're mentioning it.

Brad Shreve 0:52

it's not that stupid, except the timing was wrong. I just. A cup of coffee really fast. In fact, I put ice, I put ice in it so I can drink it really fast. And you know what coffee does It drives me out like crazy. So if I ended up sounding like Kathleen Turner, please forgive me

Justene 1:12

okay.

Brad Shreve 1:13

I have my water next to me. I'll keep guzzling. But, I am parched at this moment,

Justene 1:19

I see. Okay. Well at least you're caffeinated.

Brad Shreve 1:23

Yes, I am caffeinated. I am caffeinated. I will be able to stay awake through the segment. I don't know if you'd know who the guest is. This episode. It's Garrett Hudson. he's back.

Justene 1:35

Good. Wonderful.

Brad Shreve 1:37

he's a good author, a nice guy, and he's really knowledgeable on queer history. And so he shares some of his knowledge with us.

Justene 1:46

That's one.

Brad Shreve 1:47

Yeah, that's a good conversation. And now before you'd begin your recommendation, have you noticed, I've barely mentioned Paul Rudd in awhile.

Justene 1:58

Yeah, Barely. barely.

Brad Shreve 2:01

I may have mentioned his name, but I haven't really talked about it. You usually don't read the show notes to you you already know what the show is about.

Justene 2:09

Well, when I, when I was gonna say is, I often go back and read the show notes from like, you know, six months ago. So I remember,

Brad Shreve 2:17

Yeah, but you don't generally read them like

Justene 2:19

I generally don't read them as they're coming out. Nope,

Brad Shreve 2:22

so you don't know that I've been a little sneaky

Justene 2:25

no, I don't.

Brad Shreve 2:27

Paul ride, as you know, I find him damn sexy and he's also,

Justene 2:34

It's just about the links to Paul, whether you've been sneaking to the show notes, when you think I don't notice,

Brad Shreve 2:41

he's because here's the thing. Paul Rudd is

Justene 2:44

I would not count on me. You know, I would not count me not reading them.

Brad Shreve 2:48

Okay. Well, I didn't think you did. He's a really funny guy, though. The problem with Paul is he needs to fire his agent cause he's been in some really shitty movies.

Justene 2:59

Okay.

Brad Shreve 3:00

Terrible movies. And so, so he doesn't shine through. So for the past seven weeks, this is week seven in a row. There's a link in the show notes to the Paul Rudd video of the week. And I'm disappointed. I'm disappointed. You knew it because I wanted it to be a surprise for you.

Justene 3:19

Yeah, they're all. I'll just tell you. It certainly was a surprise. The first time I saw it.

Brad Shreve 3:26

And you never mentioned it. It's been almost two months.

Justene 3:30

yeah, well, you know, you can see my eyes rolling so hard in my head that they were wrapping them up.

Brad Shreve 3:36

I think only one Lesnar has brought it up to me. And that's because he sent me a picture of Paul Rudd where he looked hot.

Justene 3:45

yeah, everybody else has rolling their eyes so much. Their brains are Redland too well. They're clicking on it and being very surreptitious that they like them as much as you do.

Brad Shreve 3:56

If you like Paul, go back the past seven weeks. I think it's Meredith is the very first one. I did it. And you can watch some brief YouTube videos when Paul is funny and it's real personality gets to shine through.

Justene 4:10

Okay.

Brad Shreve 4:11

That's my gift to the listener.

Justene 4:13

Excellent.

Brad Shreve 4:14

has nothing to do with, box has nothing to do with crime fiction, but it does have to do with my lust for Paul Rudd.

Justene 4:23

Okay. You got it.

Brad Shreve 4:28

So.

Justene 4:30

Yes, it was it. Will you get to say something after that? So

Brad Shreve 4:37

So

Justene 4:38

did your mouth completely dry out now?

Brad Shreve 4:42

Yes,

Justene 4:43

Okay.

Brad Shreve 4:45

I actually, I didn't know if I had more to say, but actually that is pretty much it. I'm done with my little rambling just something that's near and dear to my heart.

Justene 4:56

Uh huh.

Brad Shreve 4:57

I'm ready to hear what you're going to recommend today.

Justene 5:00

Well, you know, I'm going to recommend one of the most famous gay history books out there. And that's only because it is known by many, many street readers. Also James Patterson's instinct, it was originally murder games and then it was made into a TV show called instinct, and they've now changed the title of that first book to instinct. and his second book is killer instinct. So I read both of them.

Brad Shreve 5:31

I have a question for you have, have you read any other James Patterson's books?

Justene 5:36

I have, but I, I don't, I don't generally read them as a rule.

Brad Shreve 5:41

And the reason I ask is every book he puts out, he list or his publisher, less under LGBTQ mysteries. Or thrillers. Is that true? As far as you know?

Justene 5:53

No, I think these are the only ones.

Brad Shreve 5:57

Oh, well, they're, they're being sneaky. Okay. So tell us about instinct.

Justene 6:02

well, I'll tell you a couple of things about it first and I'll get my pet peeves out of the way. I don't like books in which the character knows something. The narrator knows something. That they don't tell the reader. You know, somebody in this, most of the book is written in first person and at an ender chapter, he says, I figured it out. And then we don't know what he's figured out. And that, third person point of view just drives me crazy. Um, so it was a little bit of that in there. And also, I don't really like when it's written in the first person and then it switches to third person for your things that you see that the, first person narrator is not in. So I, you know, I can forgive that he's writing the book afterwards. He knows what happens. So he, he talks about what I did. And then he talks about, you know, what other people did at the time. So that's a little bit less than that.

Brad Shreve 7:05

I got to tell you when the protagonist knows something and doesn't share it with the reader, it's unfair. And I generally hate it. The fact that James Patterson is so hugely popular, I was probably still give them a try, but,

Justene 7:21

Well, the rest of this book is terrific. I mean, really, the, downside is that the, the crimes in both books are, if you saw the TV show, which only ran for one season much to my disappointment, if you, if you saw the TV show, Then you saw the crimes in these two books. Yeah. As with anything that's made into a movie. And certainly it was a shorter thing. Like a TV show, the book is far richer and far more interesting and better done than a TV show can be. The other thing that, amuses me and before it was known that the, that he was, yeah. Uh, gay sleuth at the beginning of the book, he comes home to his spouse called Tracy, and he just talks about Tracy, Tracy lake, my corridor for me, we had a big interview coming up and then the woman from the adoption and she comes and looks at them and says, oh, and then he revealed Tracy is a man, and we're a gay couple trying to adopt. So I wonder. You know, he's kind of playing hide the ball, but I wonder how many people picked it up, not realizing it and then got halfway through and went, what, who, oh dear, what am I going to do now?

Brad Shreve 8:42

Scrum.

Justene 8:46

Well, I just thought that was kind of an interesting trick to play on the reader. And I wonder how much, yeah, I wonder how much the, the, how many of the readers were surprised by that.

Brad Shreve 8:56

Well, I have picked up books and found that the, characters were straight. So, turnabout is fair. Play.

Justene 9:04

Yeah. It's an, especially some of those books that are under LGBT fiction and you go, wait a minute, wait a minute. The bank guarantees. Right.

Brad Shreve 9:12

Yeah. Cause the guy that runs the hot dog stand or something is gay, so they throw it under LGBTQ

Justene 9:18

exactly. Right. those were all my pet peeves, but let's get to why I think this book is, you know, it's James Patterson, he's got a co-writer on this, and I assume as he gets older, the co-workers too most of the writers. you know, it's still got his name on it and it's still mainstream. It's still a best seller. It was still made into a TV show. So you can only imagine the quality of them. the, main character is a professor of psychology and he's an ex CIA agent. And he's written the most famous book on abnormal psychology. He teaches abnormal psychology and so much of the books are peppered with the kind of psychological insights. It almost seemed like there's. And I don't know how realistic that is, but it's a lot of fun in a book. The first book in the Sherry's, they bring him into the investigation because, the killer sends his book off to the news reporter. First book is about a serial killer and the serial killer kills someone and then leaves a playing card. Like a carer card, you know, you can read it in tender anything, and then it's the next, when you get to the next murder, you go, oh, that's who it is. And that's how the previous card was warning us about it. And they never quite catch up to that at that point. so with that, what they do with the serial killer is they, they never quite catch on with the cards, but they do eventually figure out what all these victims have done. The second book is a pure Spites Villar their characteristic book starts with bombings in times square, and they have to race against the clock, before these terrorist cells blow up something else in the city.

Brad Shreve 11:11

Ooh.

Justene 11:11

And it's it, it's after nine 11 and send New York work and it is fillable. Mossad and M I six and the CIA, uh, it was a joint terrorism task force in New York city. And I think they saw a few other agencies in there, like the Saudis and it ran and, you know, the occasional mention of Kwan Caldwell, a little mention of bin Lauden, how they caught him. And so it doubles as a. As a mystery, but also the mystery is all about these spies and these agencies.

Brad Shreve 11:48

It sounds complicated.

Justene 11:50

It is something complicated. One thing I don't always like and what I beta book, you know, sometimes the author in the middle of like kind of sum up everything that's gone before. and I say, you really just like laying it out for yourself so you can probably cut that scene. I was very grateful in the middle. They did a whole, like a chapter where they summed up everything. I knew from the previous chapters, because I was really kind of losing the sweater, how things fit together. And I needed that reminder. You're in the middle of the book, even though I'd already read it in one setting. So it, and the whole thing plays out like a movie or read, uh, once, uh, you know, tips for writing the best seller novel and have the scenes play out. Like you're watching a movie. Don't spend a lot of time dealing with, things you can't see on the screen. And this does that mean that you've got adjusted enough insight to know what's going on, know how the protagonist thinks, but it just plays out like a movie with, um, one action scene after another. the visuals are wonderful. the streets of New York or. Um, they go from brownstones to ratty, little apartments to the taverns, and it's just every, uh, scene. You can just picture the setting and all the people, and he just takes you along for the ride. I recommend both of these books and they both have a thrilling recommendations, but the first one also has an intriguing recommendation because it is a very unique serial.

Brad Shreve 13:24

Okay. So instincts has a thrilling and intriguing recommendation. And killer instinct has a thrilling recommendation.

Justene 13:32

that's right.

Brad Shreve 13:33

That's good. We, I don't think we've done thrillers enough, so I'm glad you did those.

Justene 13:38

I tend to prefer mysteries. And, occasionally I recommend thrillers, but, a lot of swirls. Like here are the bad guys, let's go chasing them and they don't always have enough mystery in them. when I run across a thriller, that is a mystery also, then I bring it forward for the.

Brad Shreve 13:55

See, I feel that way about, um, oh Matt Damon. Who does he play? That? He's always on the run.

Justene 14:02

The Jason Bourne.

Brad Shreve 14:04

Jason Bourne. They don't really have stories. I mean, they're exciting and in the edge of my seat, but they don't really have stories.

Justene 14:11

Right,

Brad Shreve 14:13

And actually the very first I was having seizures for a while and they still don't know why, but I had to walk out of one of those movies because my head was spinning. But that's that's, I don't know why I brought that up just cause I like to talk about myself.

Justene 14:25

Yeah. Well, so he's really helped you. You're the star of the show, so they can hear a little bit more about you all the time. Maybe, you know, they have to know more about you than just the, you like Paul Rudd.

Brad Shreve 14:36

There is more to me than just liking Paul red. That is true someday. I'll just list all my qualities off. that's James, Patterson. what about required tails? Do you have anything from there today?

Justene 14:49

All coming out today? If you haven't, pre-ordered it. You need to get there. And it's Nick Hoffman For little miss evil, by Lev rafaelle. It is, another murder mystery set at the state university of Michigan and it says good. Meg Perry who writes the, uh, Jamie Brody mysteries. It has done the, foreword for this one. She's not finished with her Jamie Brody series and she's moved on to his brother, Kevin birdie for her newest.

Brad Shreve 15:21

Well, great. I like Meghan Lev, so that's a great combinate.

Justene 15:25

Yep. So a towel today?

Brad Shreve 15:27

Wonderful. I'm gonna move on to Garrett. Hudson's

Justene 15:30

Sounds great.

Brad Shreve 15:53

Garrett Hudson. Before we begin with your interview, I'm going to pull a fast one on you.

Garrett Hutson 15:58

No.

Brad Shreve 16:00

You are a LGB T history nut I've that's my, my word before we even begin, had to pull one piece of little known LGBT TQ history of the air, and tell us about it.

Garrett Hutson 16:16

I don't know.

Brad Shreve 16:18

Okay.

Garrett Hutson 16:18

Um, well little known, huh? Okay. Um,

Brad Shreve 16:24

Or elaborate on something. We may know.

Garrett Hutson 16:26

okay. I can do that. Clearly, um, attitudes have varied widely over time, and it's not always been an even progression towards more rights or, or more acceptance. Um, there's been quite an ebb and flow over the years. and just looking within Western civilization by itself, there was a period there in the twenties and thirties when there was a lot more acceptance than there was in subsequently the forties through the sixties. including in perhaps most, especially in Germany in the twenties. They had very large and very active and visible gay communities and, um, potentially trans communities as well. A lot of cross dressing, uh, performers and whatnot in Germany, in the twenties and all that went away in the blink of an eye. And even in the U S and other Western countries, it really declined in the forties and kind of hit bottom in the fifties and sixties for awhile. So, uh, it's not always been an even, you know, progression through. Okay.

Brad Shreve 17:24

That German history, anybody that's seen, the play or the movie cabaret that really shouldn't surprise him that much. because that's, for the most part, what, that was all about to, to very large degree and what I'm finding interesting, I've made a no secret. I'm currently doing a lot of research on a, uh, a novel, right. That takes place during the twenties and. I'm really surprised to learn, basically what you're saying, that there has been an ebb and flow and things were at seems almost at their worst here in the United States, in the forties. And then especially in the fifties,

Garrett Hutson 18:00

Right. Yeah. And, and McCarthy was part of that, but, but he was also as much as symptom as anything. the culture was turning against things a lot. And McCarthy just kind of took advantage of that.

Brad Shreve 18:12

Exactly. I would agree. He definitely wasn't the cause he just happened to come in right at the right time when America was rife for something like that, which we tend to do. from time to time people step in and at the right moment, don't they.

Garrett Hutson 18:25

Yeah.

Brad Shreve 18:26

let people, know you are Garrett. Hudson writes up market mysteries and historical spy fiction, driven by characters who are moving an unforgettable. He lives in Indianapolis with his husband four adorable dogs. Two oddball cats and more fish than you can count. You can usually find them reading about history and daydreaming about being there. This is where his stories are born and he hopes they transport you the way his imagination transports him. And I'm going to go straight to there. When you say ringing about history and daydreaming about being there. Where do you most daydream that you would want to be if it was somewhere else in history, somewhere and someplace else?

Garrett Hutson 19:12

Oh boy, if it's just strictly daydreaming. Cause you know, things weren't always so great in, you know, the good old days. Weren't always so good. Yeah. But definitely I think the twenties, the twenties in New York would have been a really fun place to be. Um, you know, if you ignored the fact that you could get arrested just for drinking or, uh, they didn't have the medical care that we have now, I think it was a really fun atmosphere that I would have had a good time. I think.

Brad Shreve 19:38

I think I agree with you at least off the top of my head. I totally agree with you. So, no, actually don't. Is your most recent novel? That is the third in the death of Shanghai series in a, just came out last week. For those of us that aren't familiar with the series, discuss the death in Shanghai series and including who Doug Bain bridges the series in general.

Garrett Hutson 20:03

Sure. Um, it's a series of mysteries that take place in Shanghai in the 1930s. the first book takes place in 1935 and, um, Doug Bainbridge is, with the office of Naval intelligence, a young officer, and he has a background in being very fluent in two Chinese languages. And so he's selected by the office of Naval intelligence to go on an, an immersion in Shanghai to really look. In depth, Chinese culture and civilization, and, and, uh, be an asset in that way. So he's sent there for a two year immersion and he has a tendency to get himself caught up in murders. Shanghai is a very big city. There's a lot of corruption. The head of the Chinese government's anti-European board was the biggest opium driver in the entire country. And he lived in Shanghai and he could basically use his official position to get rid of his enemies. And, uh, it was just a really interesting place in time. There was a very diverse international community there. The several countries had what they called extra territorial rights, which meant that their citizens were tried under their own countries systems. Like they had their own courts in China. There was an American court in China, British court in China, et cetera. and so a lot of Western countries in Japanese nationals as well had, uh, significant privileges in Shanghai. But then the positive side of that was that there was this very, really diverse. Community there. And a lot of jazz, a lot of nightlife, it was just a really interesting place. And I thought I can set murder mysteries there. And so I did.

Brad Shreve 21:34

and it definitely is a really colorful time period. And it certainly shows on your novels. What was the defining moment when you said this is when. I have to write my next book. This is the place it has to be the place in time. When was that?

Garrett Hutson 21:50

You know, it was a little bit of serendipity. I just kinda stumbled across some things, um, going down a rabbit hole on the internet. And I came across a news article about the, the revival of some of the old jazz clubs in the old section of Shanghai. And I just kind of, you know, clicked from one link to another and read all kinds of things. And, it just all kind of came together and I thought, wow, this would really be a great place for a murderer.

Brad Shreve 22:14

so we skipped over Doug Bainbridge, the protagonist of the story. Uh, tell us about Doug.

Garrett Hutson 22:22

Okay. Um, Doug is a young Naval officer. He, he kinda got into the Navy by accident, uh, having graduated from college right at the depths of the depression, um, having just really ticked off his father so that his father didn't hire him in the family business. And he had to find another job really fast. And with his Chinese language skills, he was kind of into named demand, had been offered something with the Navy. And so he kind of just got into that by accident. And then kind of got sent to Shanghai by accident. And when he's there, he's a little bit of a fish out of water at first. He runs into an old friend from, uh, San Francisco. And, uh, they go out one night to a club called the Jade dragon and his friend who is a reporter, goes out at intermission and never comes back. And Doug goes out to look for him and find some killed in an alley. And, uh, the police don't do very much. They assume it's, uh, a robbery that just went wrong and he knows there's more to it than that, uh, because of the conversation they had had in the J dragon club. Uh, Tim went out and so it takes it upon himself to investigate the murder and find out who killed Tim.

Brad Shreve 23:26

now in the first book, Tim's friend is art Jones, another reporter who does become Doug's friend as well. And is in this novel, Tufts about, Jonesy.

Garrett Hutson 23:38

Josie's one of my favorite characters. Honestly, he's very gruff and very matter of fact, down to earth, but he's, he's really a softy on the inside. He's got this very graphic, exterior, and, uh, part of that is because of, you know, having come up, growing up as a club, Gay kid in a small Michigan town. Uh, he put up that kind of an exterior. And then his early years as a reporter were working the labor beat in Detroit at a really dark time for the labor movement. And he saw a lot of really violent strike breaking and things that were, he had editors that didn't allow him to print, uh, things that he had seen and whatnot. So he, he kind of puts up this gruff exterior, but he's really a softie on the inside. And he's got a bit of a thing for Doug and, uh, And Doug's not always very comfortable with that. And I have a lot of fun playing.

Brad Shreve 24:27

Well, and I want to get into that a little bit, and I want to talk about Lucy, but you made me think of something that I read that you had said once, and this is regarding, What you just said about, Jonesy. I heard you once say that in your book, queer characters are acknowledged and seen. And what you said is I try to make this natural. It's not an agenda. It's just what I know. Can you elaborate on that?

Garrett Hutson 24:55

Yeah. Um,

Brad Shreve 24:57

I love that by the way. So.

Garrett Hutson 25:00

Thank you. Yeah. Um, just like a lot of gay men, most of my social circle is other gay folk. so it's just really natural for me to always have gay characters and usually multiple of them, because I, I can't imagine life without a lot of gay people around. And so that just kind of comes out in what I write. And I do think it's important to have that representation, um, that these characters. Don't just happen to be gay, but that this is actually part of who they are and part of how the character relates to the world. And so I tried to bring that out.

Brad Shreve 25:30

And then the third person that we have, that is most prominent in this series is Lucy Doug's girlfriend. Can you care to tell us about her and their relationship?

Garrett Hutson 25:40

Yeah, Lucy was an accidental character. Um, she was really when I very first sat down to write the J dragon, the first book in the series, it was a NaNoWriMo, which is in November national novel writing month. For those who are not familiar with it, it's an annual challenge to do 50,000 words of fiction in one month. It's difficult, but I love it. And I do it every year. And so I had sat down to write this during NaNoWriMo and on the first day in the first scene, she just kind of showed up as this little throwaway character or somebody to have a conversation with Doug and kind of set the scene and she kept coming back and she kept coming back and she kept coming back. And I really liked her. She's this very intelligent, very sophisticated, very modern girl. She drinks, she smokes. She swears it's, uh, all the things that aggravate her. and she's just a really fun character and she is a good counterbalance for Doug to cause Doug, especially toward early in the series can be a little bit uptight about things and she calls him on it all the time. And I have a lot of fun with that as well.

Brad Shreve 26:39

And the reason I wanted to get the three of them out of the way. For lack of better word, uh, uh, wanted to bring them up in the beginning is two years has passed since the J dragon. How has, the story progressed and their relationships changed over that two year period, how much time has passed. since the books have actually been published,

Garrett Hutson 27:01

uh, the first book I haven't cashed and I got, I think, uh, the J dragon has been out for four years. and Assassin's hood book too was out two years ago. And then this one just.

Brad Shreve 27:10

Okay. so not that significant of a difference, but two years has passed.

Garrett Hutson 27:14

two years has passed. Yeah.

Brad Shreve 27:15

So how have they in their life changed?

Garrett Hutson 27:18

They have grown, uh, quite a circle of friends, which, especially comes out in book two, Assassin's hood, um, found family is a really important theme in my writing. And it really comes out in this series even more than some of my other things. Um, Doug has a very strange relationship with his own family. and like I said, Lucy likes. You know, aggravate her mother, who still lives back in the states, by the way. so the, friends that they developed become like a surrogate family to them and they're, they're all very close and, uh, they have a lot of fun together and they're, they're very different personalities too. I try to make everyone, you know, But that's probably the biggest way that they've developed over the two years is they've really developed this, this close circle of people who support them, them. Um, they've also gotten very accustomed to life in Shanghai and can't imagine living anywhere else. So in this book that this takes place during the Japanese invasion and Lucy. Ever leave. She actually refuses to leave. Even when some of their friends do leave the city because of all the fighting, taking place in the Northern parts of the city. Um, and part of that is just because they've gotten so rooted.

Brad Shreve 28:23

It's interesting that you mentioned a found family and I found with, well, it's kind of stereotyping when it comes to LGBTQ folk in general and especially authors found family seems to be. A pretty big deal.

Garrett Hutson 28:41

Yes. Yes. It really is for a lot of us. And I think that's because for quite a few queer folk are our own biological families. Weren't always the most nurturing places for us. Um, a lot of people had very difficult relations, or sometimes they don't even have any relationship with. Their birth families anymore at all. So their friends really have filled in that void. and even if, you know, we still, like, for example, I still have decent relationships with my family. but not always perfect either. And my friends still provide me support in ways that my family can't cause they just don't understand.

Brad Shreve 29:17

I think a lot of people don't get that. It's not just that they don't want to understand. It's hard for them to understand.

Garrett Hutson 29:23

They don't have the point of references that we do. Um, they, they can't experience the things that we experienced and, you know, telling them on the go. So. You know, if, if they can't actually live with themselves, they don't really internalize these things. And that's, I think where having your close circle of friends who go through the same thing you do really is very important.

Brad Shreve 29:43

Yeah. people will frequently say after they come out, well, I'm the same person and you know what? I accepted that people had to have time to judge because you know what, in their eyes. The same person, at least not on a surface level. I had an entirely different future than what people had anticipated. And I think people forget that sometimes.

Garrett Hutson 30:03

Yeah. It's I think there's a difficulty sometimes letting go of the image they had of you, which was never real to begin with, but that it was, it was real to them and they have trouble with that sometimes.

Brad Shreve 30:16

People hate labels, but they exist And they always will.

Garrett Hutson 30:19

And they always will.

Brad Shreve 30:21

That's for sure. So let's go back to art Jones. Uh, gay man in the thirties in Shanghai, you talked about, it was kind of a, an exciting time period. What was it like, for someone that was gay during that time period in that era?

Garrett Hutson 30:39

Well, it wouldn't have been easy. Uh, even in places that had community in and where people were a little bit more open, nobody was really out, there was no such thing really as being out of the closet, you didn't necessarily hide it, but you were what they would say discrete. You just didn't talk about things very much. Um, now Jonesy's kind of fun because he will talk about. To Doug because Doug knows and Lucy and several of their other friends know, but because Doug knows and is also just a little bit uncomfortable with it. Still Jonesy likes to talk about it a lot, just to kind of get his goat.

Brad Shreve 31:15

Yeah, my husband and I like to call it the, uh, Paul Lynn factor,

Garrett Hutson 31:19

Yes.

Brad Shreve 31:21

even though I did all the time. It, for the most part, it was just like, yeah, that's Paul, but we just don't discuss it.

Garrett Hutson 31:27

We just don't discuss it. No, it's true. And, and Shanghai was a, it was a big city. And of course there are always going to be more gay people in big cities than in small towns, just because there are more people, uh, plus Shanghai was, uh, a port city as well. And, and you tend to get everything in port cities. So I think it's at least marginally easier for the characters to have been gay there because of the environment than it would have been back in Jonesy, small hometown and yeah.

Brad Shreve 31:55

That's interesting fact about port cities. That's why San Francisco is it's colorful as it is. And, and, actually was a. Drop-off point for those that were outed in, the Navy as well, which happens in a lot of port city. So,

Garrett Hutson 32:09

Yes.

Brad Shreve 32:11

they do tend to be colorful place.

Garrett Hutson 32:13

Yes.

Brad Shreve 32:15

So other than the twenties and Shanghai in the future, if you're writing a now they're historical series, which I presume there would be another one down the road,

Garrett Hutson 32:26

Oh, yes.

Brad Shreve 32:28

what do you see as possibilities as, areas and locations that call to you?

Garrett Hutson 32:33

Um, boy, I, I really love ancient history a lot. Now. I don't know how much of a market there is for fiction set in the very deep past, but I really love. And by ancient, I don't just mean like ancient Greeks and Romans, I mean like way back, uh, bronze age and stuff like that. Like, I'm really fascinated with periods of time where we don't necessarily know exactly what happened. We have clues and there are theories, but it was so long ago that there aren't that many records. so talking like 3000 years or more ago, I love that time period. And I think there could be all kinds of possibility to write fiction for that period. I just don't know if I ever will or not, or if I do it may just be.

Brad Shreve 33:14

Well, you bring up an interesting ethics question because we don't have a lot of information from that time period. Uh, if you did decide to write fictional stories, you might have to fill in some blanks there on your own ethically. How important would it be. for you to make it for the reader to understand that you are filling in blanks? That this isn't necessarily based on true historical fact, because there just isn't enough evidence.

Garrett Hutson 33:42

Yeah, I do believe in full disclosure. I put a historical note at the end of all of my novels, saying what is a true fact and what I've elaborated on. but I can usually do that in a page or two. So, you know, my novels all take place in the 20th century. So far, if I were doing anything much more ancient like that boy. Yeah, I'd probably have to have a pretty extensive historical note with lots of disclaimers at the end. I do. I do feel like I need to warn readers. If I take too many liberties,

Brad Shreve 34:11

And one of your early favorites. Was one of my early favorites is James Michener, which doesn't surprise me in the least when I read that, I think it was on your website.

Garrett Hutson 34:22

it is.

Brad Shreve 34:23

not everybody familiar with James Ms. Sharon, and actually I'm surprised when I bring him up and I get a glazed look on people's faces and maybe it's because he's not been around for awhile

Garrett Hutson 34:32

No,

Brad Shreve 34:32

for our listeners, tell us who he is and in how he influenced you and what his style was.

Garrett Hutson 34:39

um, his. Epic historical sagas. often multi-generational, many of them are door stoppers, 800 to a thousand pages. so they're not for the faint of heart. and he would get into very great detail of historical things in situations that he loved to write about a particular place through centuries and generations. And, um, Really fascinating stories. he was, I think, one of the most popular historical novelists in the mid 20th century, fifties through seventies.

Brad Shreve 35:09

and anybody who has not read a missioner novel, I'm going to clue you in a little secret here. He doesn't just write century. Sometimes he writes Malone. I think an example, well, actually probably one of his most famous Centennial, which mainly takes place around Colorado Wyoming area. And he starts basically from the beginning of time and how the land developed in the world developed and that sort of thing. And I find when I read his novels, now I find that interesting. I will say at one point I didn't find any of that. Interesting. So, I'm going to suggest to the listeners that go out and read some James Michener novels. There's some great ones. Uh, Chesapeake is one of my favorites. Alaska is a Good. one, but if you get in there and it's, and he's really going in depth into the formation of the rocks and that sort of thing, do what I did. And skip ahead to when people show

Garrett Hutson 36:00

Yeah.

Brad Shreve 36:01

because there was several times I just do as novels with side and said, I don't get it. And. Then I, started skipping ahead and I would read, not even when the earliest people, would come in, but when the actual stories would start taking place, cause he can really get into depth there. And uh, once he got into those man, he just locked you in and he did a beautiful job of intertwining, fictional characters with historical. Events uh, to the point that sometimes it was hard to tell where one began and one ended,

Garrett Hutson 36:36

Yeah, I agree. Another example, you brought up Centennial, but he did the same thing in Hawaii. He had like a whole chapter on the ancient volcanoes and the formation of the islands out of the ocean and yet modern readers. Now wouldn't be interested in that. And I think I remember when I was a teenager, just kind of really skimming that section,

Brad Shreve 36:55

Yeah. And see, I can go back now and read that, and then it's interesting. But, uh, back when I was younger, I was, I just couldn't get into it at all. And Hawaii drives me crazy. If you've seen the movie Hawaii, don't base the book on the movie. It's a fine movie, but it's a musical. And I don't see how it relates to that novel in any way, shape or form. but they do say it's a novel based on the James Michener, novel Hawaii.

Garrett Hutson 37:25

Yeah. Loosely.

Brad Shreve 37:27

Oh, I could go on all day about that, but, so it's kind of obvious, but can you say how he has influenced you, Andy? Do you see possibly in the future doing as he did and, and intertwining more real historical characters with your fictional characters?

Garrett Hutson 37:45

I probably won't. I loved reading that. Yeah. When I was a teenager, uh, and mentioned it, wasn't the only one that did this, I think, especially in the late 20th century, it was really common to have your protagonist bumping into real historical figures. Like. Chapter there was this new historical figure. Um, and that was really popular for a while. I don't see myself actually doing that, for a couple of reasons. Um, it's not super realistic that, you know, your random protagonist runs into famous people left and right. All the time, because most of us don't run into famous people left and right all the time. Uh, maybe one if we're lucky or two. but also in addition to it not really being realistic, I don't like to take a whole ton of liberties with Realty. And, so I try really hard not to have real people appear as characters in the book. Now, now they'll come up in conversations because you know, just like, you know, you and your friends might have a conversation about Joe Biden and somebody in my book. So we'll have a conversation about FDR. Um, so these, people do come up, but they're not appearing as characters in the story. And that's largely my discomfort. Trying to make, like, I would not feel comfortable making FDR a person in my story because I don't really know what he was like. I mean, I can read about him, but I don't really know what he was like. And this was a real person and he has real descendants living now. And I couldn't do them justice. I don't think

Brad Shreve 39:07

And it's also a lot of work.

Garrett Hutson 39:09

it would be a lot of work.

Brad Shreve 39:11

it's one thing to enjoy history. It's one to have to really. Dig, dig, dig, dig, dig in there, like crazy like that. but I agree with you. I think there is an ethical issue there. you know, I write contemporary Los Angeles and for instance, I use, real characters in my novel, for example, in my most recent novel, it's mentioned that Sally field introduced to the main characters, at an. Party, but that's all, I don't get into a personality. I don't get it because

Garrett Hutson 39:40

Okay.

Brad Shreve 39:41

one there's a legality issue that legality issue goes away after they've been dead and gone for a while. But I still think there is an ethical issue

Garrett Hutson 39:50

agree with you and I think the way you did it was very realistic. Of course, they're in LA you know, they could run into a famous person at an Oscar party. Yeah. You did that very realistically, I thought,

Brad Shreve 39:59

Yeah, it's quick and easy. And I, I feel like that's the safest thing to do good on you. I think you're doing it the right way.

Garrett Hutson 40:06

no, thank you.

Brad Shreve 40:07

staying with your earliest influences in the fourth and fifth grades, you won ribbons, in young authors contests. Do you see that as the time when you said, wow, this writing thing may be pretty cool or was it even before then?

Garrett Hutson 40:23

it was really, then I had always been making up stories before then, but I think that was the first time I, I got any validation for it. You know, I could entertain my cousins telling stories or something like that, but actually getting some validation from a teacher was really empowering and that's when I thought, you know, I could actually be an author someday when I grow up. So yeah, that is kind of one that.

Brad Shreve 40:44

And you said, I want to be an author someday when I grow up and you are in the corporate world, working in human resources. How did that happen?

Garrett Hutson 40:53

Uh, that was a roundabout way as well. I was a French major in college and there's not a lot of jobs, French majors. So I, I kind of worked in customer service for a while and I, I got a customer service position working at a retirement plan company. Uh, and that kinda got me into the employee benefits field and from the employee benefits field, I just kind of gradually morphed into HR. And so that's where I've been.

Brad Shreve 41:19

given that, how are you able to balance, your writing career with your, your full-time career?

Garrett Hutson 41:26

Well, it's not always easy. Um, especially we have very busy periods, especially in the fall when there's open enrollment for benefits and whatnot. I, I try to always make sure that I keep work within work hours. I'm not one of those people. Who's constantly checking my work email at 11 o'clock at night or anything like that. I don't do that. I, um, even now working from home with, you know, COVID and everything like that, I still keep pretty standard office hours. And so when I'm not in those office hours, I don't work at my day job. And that allows me time in the evening to be able to do some writing or revising or whatever stage I might be in at that. Research as well. Yeah.

Brad Shreve 42:05

Do you find after. A long day or before your day begins, is that, do you have to, even though you may love being a writer, do you have to really force yourself to sit down and.

Garrett Hutson 42:17

Sometimes. Yeah. Um, and I definitely don't do it right after work. Um, right after work is when I will go up, be with the dogs for awhile, clean the kitchen, listened to some podcasts, just kind of let my brain settle a little bit. And then later in the evening, then before we have dinners, when I do my writing,

Brad Shreve 42:35

so you brought a podcast. I'm curious, just out of curiosity, what, podcasts that you can suggest to people.

Garrett Hutson 42:42

Oh, sure. if you're interested in LGBTQ fiction, the rope podcast is excellent with that. there's also the big gay, fiction podcast. So that's a little bit more romance.

Brad Shreve 42:52

Yeah.

Garrett Hutson 42:53

Focused. And so I don't listen to that one all the time, but I do listen to that one, some, and they're, they're very fun. I enjoy listening to them. if you're a writer, uh, I listened to a lot of podcasts about writing. There's a writers, Inc. The creative pen, uh, the sell more books show. There's a lot of good ones.

Brad Shreve 43:11

You mentioned, LGBT related, uh, wrote podcast and the big gay fiction podcast, which the guys that host both of those shows are great. They were all really helpful to get me up and running and we've all promoted each other. I would say this show and those shows are all pretty good at balance of mostly being towards the reader, but giving enough that the writers can get a little bit in there as well.

Garrett Hutson 43:35

I could see that. Yeah.

Brad Shreve 43:37

well, and Jeff, from the big gay fiction podcast, I actually met about a year before I began this podcast at the, uh, LA times, book Fest. I think that's what it's called. It's been a couple of years since we've had one now, but a LA times book fair very nice couple of guys. It was great to meet them. And, and I'm glad I did because it gave me a, launching off point. When I decided to do a podcast, I could easily reach out and say, Okay. guys, tell me what I'm doing here. Cause I don't have a clue.

Garrett Hutson 44:03

And that doesn't surprise me. That they'd be really nice in person. They have a very, there's a lot of warmth that comes through in their podcast, I think. And I could see that they'd be like that in real.

Brad Shreve 44:13

It's very natural. It is very real. And I would say that it's true advanced and bad's over at rope podcast as well. It is hard to fake it.

Garrett Hutson 44:22

Now I could see that.

Brad Shreve 44:23

I'm a total asshole. So hopefully I fake it pretty well.

Garrett Hutson 44:29

Yeah, you fake it really well then.

Brad Shreve 44:33

Or maybe I'm not, maybe I come across as a total last, so I don't know. So we talked earlier about your characters. let's get into your novels are character driven, and In the intro, it says that your novels are upmarket novels. And part of that is that they are of a John were fiction yet very literary I hope I'm saying that

Garrett Hutson 44:57

Yeah. And. Part of what makes something up market as well, is that it is at least as much about the characters in their story as it is about whatever the tropes are. so I try to write a story that is about some people and, and yeah. Or story as well as being a mystery. And I think it's, if you try to do that in equal measure, you're going to have enough market. Yeah.

Brad Shreve 45:19

you may have heard over the past several weeks, I've mentioned, uh, several authors that I think do a really good job of, it. That if. A mystery novel. I would still enjoy reading the, story because I liked the characters so much. And when an author does that to me, I always wish I could drive to wherever they are and give them a big hug. So good on you.

Garrett Hutson 45:40

um,

Brad Shreve 45:42

You're about, you're about 1500 miles away from me, but, uh, uh, hugs across the miles.

Garrett Hutson 45:47

Thanks. I think of an app tacker in her cancer, gold mysteries. Um, Canter's just this really incredible character that I just love. And I love her story so much because of Cantor as well as the, you know, the, the noir mysteries that she finds herself in. And I think, the hazard in Somerset ministry is Gregory ashes series. I think it's the same way too. Um, yeah. You love those characters, and yet you also kind of want to shake them a little bit too. but I think that's the key a, an upmarket started just pulls you into the lives of those characters. And I think that really, you know, it makes it a little bit more memorable than, than just a mystery. The mystery is fun, but then there, you've got the characters as well.

Brad Shreve 46:26

I think in today's world, that's very important in general. Sometimes I really wonder if agric the Christie today could make it because miss Marple, wasn't all that interesting.

Garrett Hutson 46:39

was a busy body.

Brad Shreve 46:40

Yeah, she was pretty caricature. There wasn't a whole lot of depth to her. We, I think we knew she had nephew. I think he was in there for Labatt And some other things, but, there really wasn't a whole lot there.

Garrett Hutson 46:54

And Hercule Puro was, uh, I mean he could be amusing, but he was also insufferable, you know, and you wouldn't really in real life wanna spend very much time with him.

Brad Shreve 47:04

Well, but yeah, but sometimes it's fun to, um, trying to think of, uh, well, look, the guys I'm breaking bad. They weren't very likable,

Garrett Hutson 47:13

Well, that's true. I love that series too. They did a great job with those characters.

Brad Shreve 47:17

Yeah. But they wouldn't be guys. You want to hang out with,

Garrett Hutson 47:20

No, that that is you make an excellent point. Yeah.

Brad Shreve 47:26

So back to your characters, you write in the third person point of view, is that true in all of your novel?

Garrett Hutson 47:32

Yeah. Um, I have tried first person before and I just don't really have a knack for that. So I stick to third person close whenever I can, I will occasionally do a zoom out scene, but, but for the most part, I try to be in a close POV, but told third person. And, for my, my Shanghai mysteries, the first two books are told almost entirely from Doug's POV. Um, in, in no accidental death though, this third one. I get a little bit more into Lucy's point of view and a little bit into Jonesy's point of view as well. And some of that was the structure of the mystery itself with, Doug being back kind of active duty, uh, on the Navy. There were times when he, like, I almost needed him to be two places at once and like, he couldn't be. And so having Lucy and Jonesy as established characters gave me a little bit of an out there. It was really kind of fun. It allowed me to explore them in a completely different way, by telling a scene through their, through their vision. And, uh, I really loved doing that and I hope it comes across well, I liked it.

Brad Shreve 48:34

Well, I was going to ask when you caught yourself doing that, was that excited? Did you say, oh, I'm doing this and was it. exciting at that moment?

Garrett Hutson 48:41

It was exciting. Yeah. Um, Especially for Jonesy. I was a little bit more nervous about doing scenes through Lucy's point of view, uh, with her being a woman and me obviously not being, but my critique group is, is mostly women. There's eight of us total and there's five women. so my critique partners are two men and five women. and they gave me some pretty good feedback. So I felt comfortable at the end with it, but I was a little nervous at first, but with Jonesy, I just had fun.

Brad Shreve 49:10

critique groups are great. That way to, to kind of toss it out and say, what do you think here? They're like, no, no, no, no, no women don't think that way, but

Garrett Hutson 49:18

exactly.

Brad Shreve 49:19

You had them. Do you ever anticipate writing first person who said it's not your thing? are you, are you the type of writer that likes to give yourself a challenge?

Garrett Hutson 49:29

I do. Yeah. And I might try that again sometime. I don't have any plans to in the near term, but yeah, I do like to challenge myself and try different formats sometimes. So yeah, I might do that at some point in the future and just see how it goes. I can always rewrite it if I need to.

Brad Shreve 49:44

yeah, cause I'm the opposite. I feel much more comfortable with first person and third person is for whatever reason, very uncomfortable for me. I have a thriller that's halfway written that I stopped years ago. And I actually think it's pretty good. So someday I'll get back to it. It is third person and what's interesting is I didn't even think about it. It just, when I was writing it, it's just the way it happened. And I think if I had stopped and thought about it, and there must have been some point in my head that I said, okay, I'm going to write it in this fashion, but I don't recall that event taking place. I think it just, I sat down and I started writing and, it's just the way it happened. And, and I think in a thriller that's usually you kind of want to know everything that's going on anyway. And you write spy novels, even though they're mysteries. So you kind of want to know more. more of a God point of view

Garrett Hutson 50:35

Yeah, there, there are advantages and disadvantages to both. Um, and I've read lots of novels from, from each style and, and have enjoyed novels in first-person in third person. And, and yeah, so I would definitely give it a shot again. I just don't know that I'm going to do it for him.

Brad Shreve 50:50

in 2012, you attended the Midwest. Writer's workshop and it had a major impact on you and you have gone almost every year since then, as well as you've attended writer's digest conferences for somebody like myself who actually has not attended a major conference. what is it you gained from?

Garrett Hutson 51:11

Oh so much. Um, you learn a lot, obviously about writing craft and revisions and things like that. From the sessions you go to. But I think the biggest advantage is just the friends you make and the connections you make. Um, some of them are best writer, friends, or people I've met at, uh, Midwest writer's workshop. And we go back every year and it's like a reunion. We all get to see each other again. It's great. it's kind of funny. I'm an intern. like not even borderline, I am an introvert, but when I get to a writers conference, I become very extroverted because it's, it's, you know, unlike a lot of large gatherings, a big gathering of writers is very energizing to me. And I just love the energy of a writers conference. And, and there's a camaraderie that you don't seem to get anywhere else. And it's, it was really hard. Last year there was, you know, with COVID, nothing was in person, everything was virtual. And this year there seems to be a mix of that. unfortunate. Midwest was, um, it was virtual again this year. and I just didn't see myself sitting at my computer for three straight days at virtual sessions. So I did, I did skip it this year. but I am hopeful knock on wood that we can all be in-person again, next year.

Brad Shreve 52:21

yeah, I've attended a few conferences and says, this year a couple were podcasting conferences and it's not even close. Not even close. And it's interesting thing when you're talking about the energy at a writer's conference and of course I'm stereotyping here. Not all writers are introverts. I can tell you, I've learned that from doing this show,

Garrett Hutson 52:41

that's

Brad Shreve 52:41

but stereotypes do exist for a reason. And most writers I know are introverts. And it's interesting when you get a group of introverts together that feel comfortable being introverted together, they aren't introverts anywhere.

Garrett Hutson 52:57

It is funny how that works. Isn't it very unexpected.

Brad Shreve 53:01

Yeah, It really is. the synergy gets going in and it's, it's great that it feels so natural. So this is your eighth novel. are we going to get a, another one in the series?

Garrett Hutson 53:13

Yes. Um, so I'm actually in the research phase right now for book four. Um, and I'm planning to write it during November, this year for Nana. So hopefully I can have everything all done within about a year to a year and a half with, revisions and, and everything afterwards. But, I'm looking forward to diving into it again, at least a fourth novel, there may be a fifth one. I'm a little bit leery of having a, um, uh, an amateur constantly solving mysteries. I, I don't want to, you know, I don't want to end up Jessica Fletcher, you know, um, but there will be at least four and probably five.

Brad Shreve 53:49

But, you know what I think that's okay. When people read amateur mysteries, they know it's absurd

Garrett Hutson 53:55

Oh,

Brad Shreve 53:55

and it's part of the fight. I mean, we all make fun of the fact that Jessica Fletcher stepped over a body every other day. And, and, and thank God, you know, she, wasn't your friend. Uh, I used to kind of stem my nose immature. Mysteries. And now I, find I have a lot more, love, I think, because there are several series that I've read, that I just like the character so much that I didn't care that they were an amateur. Jessica would make fun of him because I wasn't really a big fan of the show. I thought It was pretty cheesy. It was the the eighties. love boat or the nineties love boat whenever, what was it? The nineties.

Garrett Hutson 54:28

It was The eighties.

Brad Shreve 54:29

The eighties. Okay. Yeah, But anyway, Probably just infuriated, huge number of people by saying I wasn't a fan of Jessica Fletcher.

Garrett Hutson 54:39

My parents always watched it, so I remember it being on, but, uh, especially the later seasons when I was starting to get up into high school age and stuff, I was not interested anymore.

Brad Shreve 54:48

Well, she really changed it up when she took it away from Cabot Cove and moved it to New York city.

Garrett Hutson 54:53

Yes.

Brad Shreve 54:54

that was her doing, she had to convince the producers to do that. That was part of her agreeing to do it. And I don't know why I went off by, I remember that I'm concerned. I'm a person that barely ever watched the show. I sometimes get very involved into, the background of shows, like my mom and I were fans, but I can tell you behind the scenes. Everything about the witch. I can type out the house. The studio sets the characters. I guess it's part of being a writer because actually in I'm curious, maybe you did this as a kid. I think my earliest writings were rewriting TV series that I watched because most of my life revolved around television.

Garrett Hutson 55:35

I did a lot of a star wars fan fiction in Battlestar Galactica fan fiction when I was about eight or nine years old. Yeah. Um, and some things that were just plainly rip offs, but you don't know any better when you're nine years old, you just, you know what you like and you ride it.

Brad Shreve 55:51

A lot of people get started and fan fiction. I have never told a single soul this in my life before I wrote Gilligan's island as a dromedy.

Garrett Hutson 56:02

Oh, wow. Okay.

Brad Shreve 56:03

Much different show.

Garrett Hutson 56:04

I can imagine.

Brad Shreve 56:06

and that was kind of before dramadies were a thing, but, uh, it was a much better show the way I had written it. But anyway, it wouldn't be as iconic as it is today we'll just say that for sure. So we have reached the time for awkward questions. Authored Scott.

Garrett Hutson 56:25

I knew we'd get here.

Brad Shreve 56:26

Yes. she did. I'm sure you've been anticipating it and you know, the, you know, the role I spin the wheel and we just see what question you get,

Garrett Hutson 56:35

All right, let's go.

Brad Shreve 56:37

no, here we go. Okay. I don't think this was come up before and I like it. Why do straight people bother you?

Garrett Hutson 56:51

Yeah. Oh, the world has too many straight people now. No, no, it's so funny. Straight, straight people don't bother me. Of course. As long as they behave themselves, I like well-behaved children. I like well-behaved dogs and I like well-behaved straight people.

Brad Shreve 57:08

As long as they don't flaunt their straightness in public.

Garrett Hutson 57:14

That's a good one. I haven't heard that one either.

Brad Shreve 57:16

Oh, you haven't

Garrett Hutson 57:18

I don't think so.

Brad Shreve 57:20

it's so. when that happens.

Garrett Hutson 57:25

Now in fiction. Of course I like everybody to be badly behaved. So I guess, badly behaved straight people are welcome infection.

Brad Shreve 57:31

Badly behaved. People are so much more fun to ride.

Garrett Hutson 57:34

Absolutely. I love it.

Brad Shreve 57:37

are there things that come out in your characters that are things that you. say or do Maybe it's not. as you're writing, it may not be in the, front of your mind, but later when you look back and you say, wow,

Garrett Hutson 57:51

Yeah, that happens a lot. And I don't know, it's things that I can't say or do now so much as it's maybe things you don't think to say or do so much. And it, especially when you get into a flow state, things come out and exactly, like you said, you read through it later and you're like, oh wow. That. Wow. I didn't know that was there. It can be very enlightening. Um, and of course, there's, there's always a piece of us in every character. We right. Nina, you can't ever point to one character and say, yes, that character is me. That character is you. It doesn't really work that way, but there's always some of us in all of them and just works that way.

Brad Shreve 58:27

Yeah. And sometimes when you're writing a character in the, they say or do something and it actually can be really profound. It won't be profound to the reader because it just is. But like, I'll look at that and. Wow. I think I do think that way, or I never realized, I thought that way or just like you just said, it's a,

Garrett Hutson 58:48

exactly.

Brad Shreve 58:49

it's one of the fun things of righty.

Garrett Hutson 58:51

I agree. Yep.

Brad Shreve 58:52

one of the, it's one of the great joys. like you said, with Lucy that she was going to be a minor character and she kind of just took a life of herself. And when you feel that happening as well, Describe that

Garrett Hutson 59:05

Uh, you know, it can be aggravating right at first because it's not going according to the plan you set for it, but it almost always works out better that way. And when you go back and you read through it afterwards, you, you realize that your brain knew something that it didn't know, it knew, and it, your subconscious knew better than you did. And sometimes you just have to go. Yeah. Like with Lucy as a classic example, there, she wasn't meant to be there, but I am so glad she was, she ended up being one of the best characters and, uh, I love writing or now, so I could not have played.

Brad Shreve 59:40

that's awesome. So it has been great to have you back yard.

Garrett Hutson 59:45

It's been good to be here.

Brad Shreve 59:46

70 episodes ago that you were on, you were on episode number 30 something. And this

Garrett Hutson 59:52

Okay.

Brad Shreve 59:52

number 98.

Garrett Hutson 59:55

Well, it's going by, isn't it. That's doesn't feel like it's been that long.

Brad Shreve 59:59

It's been almost two years since the show began. So I'm glad you came back. it's a pleasure to have you on and. everybody, the novel is no accidental death. It is the third in the death of Shanghai series and it is available now as of last week. So go out and get it. either click online or call your local independent bookstore. I presume they can get a paper back through an independent.

Garrett Hutson 1:00:30

Yes, they can.

Brad Shreve 1:00:31

Okay. Wonderful. Good, good, good on you that if you want to pay for back, that's the way to do it. I'm going to suggest it, but if you're going to forget it and you won't get the book, just go and get it now. Thank you again, Garrett.

Garrett Hutson 1:00:42

Well, thank you, Brad. I appreciate it.